TRANSCRIPT

Speaker 1  0:10  

Hi. My name is Iris, 

 

Speaker 1  0:12  

and I'm Carol, and welcome to the perfect princess podcast. Today's episode is titled princesses in opposite worlds, where we are going to be talking about how constructs of gender and beauty impact female identity in both fairy tales and contemporary media.

 

Speaker 2  0:30  

In this episode, we will compare and contrast Mulan and Cinderella and how they are impacted by different standards in their time. Our big question we will try to answer today is, has there always been a societal pressure for women to make themselves more attractive, and does it also apply to our princess counterparts?

 

Speaker 1  0:49  

But before that, let's give some life updates. For me. I have been very sick recently, and I'm not looking forward to finals that are coming up soon, and I have quizzes next week that I don't know if I'm ready for.

 

Speaker 2

 Yeah, me and Carol were in the same class. Well, multiple classes. We have, like, Chem and Bio together, so we've, like, back to back exams. And I think it's like, so sad how she's sick right now. Like, I feel so bad.

 

Speaker 1 

 Yeah, so I hope, as your host, you can't tell that I'm sick, but I definitely am. So Iris and I are recording over zoom today, which is not normal for other episodes. Normally we would be in person, so we apologize for any issues with quality in our recordings. Yeah, let's get started and continue on to our podcast episode today. So to start off, we want to talk about fairy tale transformations. Fairy Tale transformations are a magical part of many classic tales. To name a few, the frog prince, where a prince is turned into a frog and can regain human form if he finds love. Cinderella's classic transformation from rags to riches, which we will dive into deeper later on in this episode, and the ugly duckling, where a strange looking duckling grows up to be a beautiful swan. These stories can symbolize growth, the power of love and hidden identity. Certain types of transformations are rewarded more than others. And for women, I think it's fair to say that growth is one people value most, whether it's true growth or the illusion of growth. People like to see women changing themselves to become more attractive or make their lives attractive to other people

 

Speaker 2  2:38  

with Cinderella's transformation, specifically, it's directly tied to reward. She becomes physically perfect, or quote unquote perfect, and attends the ball, and that leads to love and ultimately a better life. It sends a message that beauty is what unlocks opportunity, even though her beauty was always there, requires transformation. Many fairy tales even more adult or quote, unquote, eroticized versions emphasize women's appearance essential to their worth and beauty therefore becomes currency.

 

Speaker 1  3:09  

We feel that this raises the question, Are these stories actually about personal growth or just external change masked with glitz and glamor of fairy tales and magic? Because I would like to argue that they seem more about physical beauty than internal beauty, which is arguably more important. What do you think?

 

Speaker 2  3:32  

Um, personally, I believe that many of the stories say they're all about like personal growth, like being a better person, or like finding who you are, but when you actually take like a closer look at what gets rewarded in each story, it's almost always physical attractiveness. And the main character isn't necessarily an inwardly changed person, but they've transformed outwardly. Like, for example, they've become like more beautiful, or like polished or like fit for society, and that leads them to be like, more happy in the end. And therefore it like, really does challenge how much these stories value actual personal growth versus how much they value how you look and fit into society. And this also tends to blur the lines between on whether a story is portraying like an actual inner transformation, or if it's merely showing changes on the surface.

 

Speaker 1  4:29  

Yeah. So when we talked about or when we're going to talk about Cinderella a little bit, I think it's kind of clear how it's mostly external, but we're also going to talk about Mulan a little bit and how it's more internal. So Mulan is pretty different, and I feel like her story contradicts this traditional appearance based femininity. So what do you think Iris, no, yeah, I think we should definitely shift to Mulan and who.

 

Speaker 2  5:00  

Challenge The like for mentioned ideas, Mulan doesn't really gain her worth by becoming more traditionally feminine, and actually, she does the opposite. She disguises herself as a man and replaces her father in the military by stepping into that masculine role, and that proves her worth through internal characteristics. For some context, the original Ballad of Mulan, it has its story focused around duty and family, and her father was called to go fight in the war, so she took his place in the army. And the interesting thing here is that nobody had any idea she was female while fighting in the army, so when she returned home, she actually didn't request any awards or recognition, but just returned to her daily routine. And the fact that her fellow soldiers were shocked when she changed back into her everyday clothing is a good example of how her being a woman didn't make her any luck. Didn't make her lack the ability to fight in the army. And the story of Mulan expands upon the ballad storyline with regards to mulan's internal identity. At first, Mulan struggles due to the societal expectations of what a woman should be, a scene in the matchmaker scene. And then, like However, once she joins the military, she finds her niche. So rather than changing her physical appearance in order to meet societal expectations, as Cinderella does, Milan changes in terms of her confidence and understanding of herself. Additionally, I thought that the legend of Huang Mulan. The TV series expanded upon the story of Mulan, and this story of Mulan story concentrates a lot more on the hardships and sacrifices of war and responsibilities, and it definitely emphasizes loyalty and survival over her individual accomplishments. So I feel like in each of these versions, like Mulan receives value based on what she does and who she is as an individual, and not by how she appears.

 

Speaker 1  7:12  

Okay, so would you say that it's fair to say that in the beginning of her tale, she worked really hard to conform to traditional feminine roles, but Mulan struggled. She couldn't really do it. She didn't feel right, and then once she steps out of this box, she is able to thrive and live fully.

 

Speaker 2  7:32  

Yeah, I feel like Mulan definitely, like flips the narrative, and she shows her identity. And it's not just about like that visual standard, but about like characteristics and actions.

 

Speaker 1  7:46  

Would it be fair that some people argue that Mulan becomes less feminine when she does this?

 

Speaker 3  7:54  

Hmm,

 

Speaker 2  7:56  

yeah, I guess so. A lot of people think that. But I feel like, personally, after doing a lot or research, and just like from speaking, speaking from experience, I feel like stepping into more of those masculine roles doesn't make you any less feminine.

 

Speaker 1  8:13  

Okay, I agree 100% but that's one moment where I feel like societal expectations of gender are kind of messed up. Because Mulan, even though she dresses up as a soldier or like, dresses up like fights as a soldier and stops acting prim and proper, I think that it's wrong for her to be considered less feminine. As we've said, she's still feminine, but doesn't portray society's idea of the usual ideal woman, especially in her time. And what I wish is that she could still be considered feminine, but just like a different aspect of feminine or of womanhood, and Mulan, like is able to accept more pro feminine side after the war, but before, I feel like it's really hard for her to do that, because she's still finding herself. Yeah,

 

Speaker 3  9:02  

herself.

 

Speaker 2  9:04  

Yeah, I definitely agree, and that's a good point. I feel like her story isn't really about leaving behind being a woman or really any kind of internal gender transformation or understanding, but it's more about finding her own way to thrive, and she definitely thrives as a soldier, doing just as well, if not better, than the soldiers around her.

 

Speaker 1  9:23  

I agree. I feel like tales like Moana and brave as well also show princesses defying traditional feminine standards. But Mulan is a pretty early example of it being done. My favorite Disney princess is Moana, so I just have to have to add that, that she also like defies those stereotypes.

 

Speaker 2  9:43  

Yeah, I actually like this comparison a lot, because in addition to Mulan, like characters such as what you said, like Moana in for example, America also have a lot to say when it comes to challenging some of those expectations. But I believe Mulan was. Is the first movie to lay down that groundwork, actually, which is pretty interesting. And in mulan's case, her story is about her wanting to prove herself through her actions and find out where she fits into the world. And in my opinion, many of the female characters who we see today who take a lead role in their respective movies, including Moana, which is like, for example, leadership and merida's Independence all build upon that foundation. So in my opinion, Mulan sort of like open the doors to the type of stories we now see featuring women in the ways they can be portrayed as being more than just pretty or who they will marry, but rather based on what they do and who they are individually,

 

Speaker 1  10:43  

yeah, yeah. I agree 100% that's great. So let's talk a little more about like our time now. So Mulan was set in Imperial China, from what I found online, correct me if I'm wrong, and Cinderella was based in the mid to late 19th century. So I feel like it's fair to say a lot has changed since then. So just for context, Cinderella and Mulan are both older than I looked these up, the light bulb, the radio, the telephone and all automobiles. So of course, a lot has changed in society too.

 

Speaker 2  11:17  

Yeah. And I'd also like to add on, like since then, we should account for some of the biggest changes in society, like the abolition of slavery, the civil rights movement, women gaining the right to vote, work and access to education. So there's definitely been a lot of changes in the culture. And I would say that, while we're still like far from perfect societies, a lot more accepting of all people and their identities.

 

Speaker 1  11:41  

Yes, I would also say that women are pretty accepted in most places. Of course, not everywhere, but it should be everywhere. But compared to 1850 Cinderella, we've come a long way.

 

Speaker 2  11:54  

Yeah, definitely like a long way.

 

Speaker 1  11:57  

But even so, people still have high expectations of women regarding their appearance.

 

Speaker 2  12:04  

I think expectations for women's beauty are so much higher than men, too, like in different ways, of course, and it got me thinking before this episode, I found a survey by advanced dermatology, and it said that the average woman spends about $1,064 on their appearance each year, while a man only spends about 728, women's top investments were stated to be skincare, hair coloring and hair products, while men's were just haircuts, supplements and gym memberships. Do you think that sounds accurate? I do think so kind of and now that you're saying it, I'm kind of thinking about what I'm spending on myself. So women's average was like 1064 so I feel like my biggest purchases definitely go to gym membership, which mine is $25 a month and $50 for a year. So like you add both

 

Speaker 1  13:00  

those together, and then I buy makeup, but I don't color my hair, but I like getting my nails done, not in Boston because it's so expensive. But I feel like, like, definitely, that might reflect a lot of people though, like, what they said top investments were an amount of money spent.

 

Speaker 2  13:18  

No, yeah. Like, Boston's crazy expensive, and I feel like I spend most of my money on like, higher end items, such as, like, I guess, groceries, like organic stuff, or things from places I like, like, Whole Foods. And I've kind of just like, fall into the mindset that those foods are like, automatically, like, better for you. Like, I'll choose something labeled organic or, like, not farmers, even if it's way more expensive, just because, like, it feels healthier. But honestly, I don't even know if it, like, makes a real difference. And I think part of that is kind of tied to, like, the whole looks maxing mindset too, where you feel like you need to optimize everything about yourself, even even down to what you eat, because it's connected to how you look and how others perceive you.

 

Speaker 1  13:59  

Yeah, I agree. Also, like, eat good, feel good. Maybe like ingredients, I don't know, so I wouldn't say that. Like, like, societal pressures. I don't feel too much pressure to present myself perfectly every day. But if I'm going to, like, an event interview or something professional, work related, I definitely do,

 

Speaker 2  14:20  

yeah, I do feel that pressure sometimes, especially for things like interviews or events like I'll spend extra time on little details like my rounds are something small, like or just buying, like a new set of clothes or shoes to feel more put together. And it's funny, because a lot of things I focus on, like a new piece of jewelry or something subtle, aren't even things most people would notice, but I feel like I over emphasize how much they actually matter, and those small changes make a bigger difference than they probably actually do, because it affects how confident I feel.

 

Speaker 1  14:53  

Yeah, I totally feel that I love buying new things for new events, like if there's a formal or something, I always want to buy a new job. Me. But today we also want to talk a little bit about something we find pretty interesting. So in the modern world, we still see something similar regarding transformations and the value of women. Many people would call this the glow up phenomenon. A glow up is pretty much a physical, sometimes mental transformation over time, it focuses on the before and after and is framed around self improvement is almost like a modern day fairy tale makeover.

 

Speaker 2  15:30  

Idea is that once you look better, feel better and present yourself better, whether it is real or fake, your life becomes drastically better. This ranges from success to fame and validation

 

Speaker 1  15:42  

and social media platforms like Instagram and Tiktok really amplify this idea. Filters and editing, including Photoshop, can make these changes look more drastic. It creates unrealistic standards and expectations, and now, with AI and many different cosmetic treatments only really being accessible to the richest people or people with the most time and money, of course, buying so like people faking it is also very common. People compare themselves to these influencers that are glow ups, which are often not actually real.

 

Speaker 2  16:14  

Yeah, I see so many of those videos on Tiktok and Instagram, especially like gym influencers and some beauty influencers, and they're always trying to, like, sell you something.

 

Speaker 1  16:23  

So literally, everyone's sponsored by, like, random companies. I don't want to name drop because we aren't sponsored, so can't do that, but it just makes it feel even more fake, because it just doesn't feel genuine. If you're making money of what you're selling me off of my insecurities, how could I trust you?

 

Speaker 2  16:41  

Right? Like I don't even trust most of

 

Speaker 1  16:43  

them. I feel like there are very few that I trust, and the ones that I do are usually not sponsored.

 

Speaker 2  16:49  

That's so true. Um, now I feel like this leads us to another idea looks maxing. And looks maxing is the idea of optimizing your appearance as much as possible, often through grooming, Fashion, Fitness or even more extreme measures like surgery and injections. And this is different from the globe idea, because it's limited to appearance only, it changes, and it's often more extreme.

 

Speaker 1  17:26  

And this is not limited to women, but it is similar to pressures we've been talking about throughout this episode. So we've been focusing on women, so we're going to talk a little bit more about that aspect of it. It can also become more obsessive and consuming than the typical glow up, and you're chasing a standard that's also limited by genetics and situation. So some things people are chasing are physically impossible for

 

Speaker 2  17:53  

them. And I feel like one of the biggest influencers for this new like trend or idea,

 

Speaker 1  18:00  

who definitely caters towards a male audience is clavicular. So let's talk about clavicular. Who is he? Who his supporters are, and how did this even start?

 

Speaker 2  18:13  

So, an article by Van Atlantic entitled What was clavicular States at the age of 14, Braden and Peters began injecting himself with mail order testosterone to make himself into something he wasn't. Did you say 14? I knew he was like young because I knew he's a teenager right now, but I didn't know it was 14. I know it's crazy. Sorry. So he was also admitted to taking meth to suppress his appetite, smashing his face with a hammer, which he calls bone smashing. And the article goes on to say that he did this because the goal was entirely superficial, quote, unquote, to reshape his physical form so that other men would feel inferior to his presence in that so that women would want to have sex with him. And in a Rolling Stones article, it is explained that he also announced plans to undergo double jaw surgery, rhinoplasty and facial implants in a single operation, all in pursuit of ascending um. Or, I guess, internet speak, for a dramatic glow up.

 

Speaker 1  19:27  

That's crazy. Be doing that many things in one operation too, like that. Cannot be healthy. I can't imagine what someone's face would look like after doing that. And that's also sad and so expensive. And he has such a big following, like, I know everyone has heard of him, that this has definitely, like, influenced all the people who are watching him. Yeah, definitely. He has like 574,000 followers on Instagram and 918,000 on Tiktok. So a huge following like his has definitely created like.

 

Speaker 2  20:01  

His looks maxing Academy for people who are very unhappy with their physical appearance.

 

Speaker 1  20:08  

So I would say that clavicular is a most dramatic and intense version of a glow up with the most insane methods.

 

Speaker 2  20:19  

Yeah, it just shows how far people will go to change how they look.

 

Speaker 1  20:25  

So of course, clavicular has become really big recently, and I would say part of his success is because his appearance did change. There was a difference between before or after. So my big question is, is success based upon appearance.

 

Speaker 2  20:44  

More modern samples of people being accepted or rejected from jobs are like based upon appearance, sometimes and honestly like they neglect their qualifications or personality, and that success is focused on solely appearance. And is it really success if you change yourself to get the job or staying true to yourself and not getting to that end point?

 

Speaker 1  21:14  

Yeah, yeah, that like makes sense. I think that a lot of people market themselves like products, like social media profiles and product branding magazines always showing great versions of themselves, even if, like, that's not the true version. Yeah, and people get the most traction when they're usually very attractive, like, for example, on love Island, like usually the most popular characters. Of course, everyone is attractive, but like, people are always talking about, like, comparing people to one another.

 

Speaker 2  21:51  

Yeah, and that also happens in this other like, reality TV show. It's honestly kind of weird. It's like they're trying to see if you would like cheat on your girlfriend or boyfriend. You guys are also stuck on the same island,

 

Speaker 1  22:05  

Temptation Island,

 

Speaker 3  22:06  

yes,

 

Speaker 2  22:09  

yeah, oh my god. I totally forgot what it's called, but I watched the entire thing, and it was, like, kind of interesting, because you're stuck on the island with your boyfriend or girlfriend and you're still cheating on them.

 

Speaker 1  22:22  

Yeah, that's crazy. What do you think of love is blind? Have you heard of that?

 

Speaker 2  22:29  

I think I have Wait. Is it like a blind date?

 

Speaker 1  22:33  

Kind of like that? It's whenever they meet each other, and it's a reality TV show, and they're in pods, so they can't see each other, and they kind of get to know each other without knowing what they look like. So it's like, it's like, you fall in love with someone, and then you get to see them afterwards.

 

Speaker 2  22:52  

See, why don't you just do that? Like, that's so much better. And also, I think it's so bad that you some people just like, decide to market off of other people like relationship downfalls,

 

Speaker 1  23:02  

yeah?

 

Speaker 2  23:02  

Like in Temptation Island. And they like record everything, so you get to see your partner cheating on you, and it's like replayed back to them in front of other people in, like, a big TV audience as well,

 

Speaker 3  23:17  

yeah. And

 

Speaker 2  23:18  

this is all, like, based off of looks, I feel like all of the compliments that they give each other are very superficial, and you can't, like, fall in love with someone that fast either. Like, yeah, you've only known them for like, a whole week, and you're cheating on your partner with this random person who's, um, I guess conventionally more attractive,

 

Speaker 1  23:42  

yeah, and it's just sometimes that initial excitement, like people somehow believe that it's love. So another big question, is femininity based upon appearance, or is that something society has defined and correlated over time

 

Speaker 2  23:59  

and strength is usually labeled as masculine. Characters like Mulan really do defy those female stereotypes, and she's labeled as masculine. But we should wonder, why is strength considered masculine, and why isn't Mulan just considered considered a strong woman?

 

Speaker 1  24:17  

I hear you and I would like to add off often traits that are labeled feminine are considered weak, like being kind gentle and listening,

 

Speaker 2  24:30  

yeah, and I think there's the problem. The problem really is because those traits aren't actually weak at all. They're just undervalued, and traits such as being kind patient or emotionally aware, takes a lot of strength, just in a different way than what we usually recognize. So when femininity gets reduced to appearance or label as less than, it kind of ignores all of those qualities and makes it seem like being feminine automatically means you're weaker, which isn't true. Yeah. And honestly, maybe the real issues in the binary. Maybe the real issue is the binary of female versus male traits, and it puts people and those fairy tale characters in suffocating boxes, and it never seems to help anyone

 

Speaker 3  25:19  

out.

 

Speaker 1  25:20  

And I feel like these binaries and stereotypes never really help anyone. So I think after everything we've talked about today, it is clear that these ideas about beauty and femininity didn't just appear recently. They've kind of always been around, just in different forms.

 

Speaker 2  25:38  

Yeah, like even in fairy tales, there was already this pressure for women to transform themselves, especially physically, in order to be rewarded just like Cinderella.

 

Speaker 1  25:47  

I think one of the biggest takeaways is that identity and worth shouldn't be tied to appearance, even though society keeps pushing that idea,

 

Speaker 2  25:56  

yeah, and femininity especially, shouldn't be limited to how someone looks or presents themselves. There are so many different ways to be a woman, whether you display the traits that are typically feminine or not.

 

Speaker 1  26:06  

Instead of focusing on blow ups, we should be focusing on internal growth, mental health and becoming happy and making ourselves the best version of ourselves. We shouldn't destroy ourselves to be approved by others.

 

Speaker 2  26:21  

I definitely agree and people should be competent. Oh, my God, I definitely agree and people should be able to feel confident and comfortable with who they are, because everyone has their own unique traits and should be celebrated.

 

Speaker 1  26:34  

And transformations will never change who you really are. So thanks for listening to our episode today.

 

Speaker 2  26:43  

And tune in for our next episode, villains, body image and the evil woman trope.

 

Speaker 1  26:48  

See y'all soon.

 

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